I pretty much agree with you on parallel hybrids (which are all of the mass production hybrids on the road that I'm aware of). They don't help the efficiency situation all that much. They have to carry the weight of a full combustion system (including a transmission) and a full electric system (including batteries). That makes them heavy, which cancels out a lot of their efficiency gain. It also diminishes handling and increases braking distance.

Coming soon are series hybrids (often called "plug-in" hybrids) which are really just electric cars with a combustion powered electrical generator. These gain the efficiencies of electrics without as much weight from the combustion system. They don't need a transmission, gears etc and they can work with a much smaller engine and smaller gas tank. The batteries can handle relatively short trips without using gas at all and you can just charge them from the wall as long as you don't need to take a long trip. Some upcoming examples are the Chevy Volt and the Aptera 2h which are both supposed to be out in 2010. I think the Volt is supposed to be able to go 40 miles on batteries alone. The Aptera 2h's electric-only range seems to keep changing but I've been hearing numbers ranging from 40-100 miles. I think there are a few others coming up too. These can be zero-emission vehicles most of the time but use gas when you need to make a longer trip -- and still get really good mileage on gas. Being able to use gas means not being required to wait several hours to charge batteries. Also, at least in theory, the combustion system could be replaced relatively easily by fuel cells if we ever get a decent hydrogen infrastructure going.

my wifes 1997 Saturn averages between 37 and 39 miles per gallon and it's just a normal gas engine. i've never understood why hybrids are all the rage when their gas mileage is not so good.

William:

Er, you quoted the part where I was agreeing with you and then said you still wouldn't like them. Er, we're agreeing -- at least as far as parallel hybrids go.

If you meant you still wouldn't like series hybrids, then I'd have to ask why?

I agree that a paradigm shift is really what is needed. Why do we need 3000lbs of steel to transport a 150 lb person 8 miles to work. Or 20 miles to work. Or 3? Cars are very useful, but we abuse the hell out of them and now we are seeing the consequences.

^That is really great advice. I guess that's why your the professional.

^that is very true. Everytime I have to go anywhere I consider how I'm going to get there, where as in the past I just grabbed my car keys. I still drive occasionally, but at least I give it some thought. But starting with the small, easy stuff shows a person how easy it really is to forgo the car, and really does lead to a life unchained to the car.

[[_linker_]]
Was what got me started on this trip.:face-monkey:

Although hybrids gas mileage isn't the most amazing. For there size compared to others the gas milage isn't bad and its not just about the gas. There may be other cars from the past that had better gas mileage but it is the emissions that's important. Their emissions are less than standard cars.

Where does the electricity come from???

Arguments often made against electric cars is that the electricity comes from coal burning powerplants.

BioDiesel seems more attractive to me.
Fueled by waste and exhaust that smells like french fries.

Tom@VC:Where does the electricity come from???

Quite a lot of sources. Natural gas, nuclear, hydro-electric, coal, petroleum, wind, solar and I'm sure I'm forgetting some others.

Arguments often made against electric cars is that the electricity comes from coal burning powerplants.

Not so much in SoCal. In any case, even coal and petroleum power plants are generally a lot cleaner than cars for the same amount of power generated. Emissions from power plants are a lot easier to control than cars because there are orders of magnitude fewer of them. That said, I'd still like to see us get rid of coal and petroleum power plants ASAP.

BioDiesel seems more attractive to me.
Fueled by waste and exhaust that smells like french fries.

There are certain advantages but it takes a hell of a lot of land relative to the amount of fuel produced. It also produces more of certain air contaminants (like ozone) than regular diesel, though overall, the pollution trade-off still favors bio-diesel. The cost of land and cultivation and refining is the real problem there. Bio-diesel is not cheap. Using waste vegetable oil is fine for a relatively small number of vehicles. It becomes more of a problem when you try to run 100 million vehicles on it. There simply isn't that much waste vegetable oil. That means going with fresh vegetable oil, which is relatively expensive. As a result, it can never be more than a relatively small part of the solution.

Excellent discussion folks.
I'm glad to see the forum talking about social and environmental issues.

Bike commuting is fun and has its personal rewards but it also can make a positive impact on our society in so many ways.

"When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race." ~H.G. Wells

I found some other clever quotes here
http://www.quotegarden.com/bicycling.html

<blockquote><cite> billd:</cite>Which is great during the day and we should definitely do it in places that are mostly sunny like SoCal but what do we do for power at night? Batteries aren't going to cut it on a metropolitan scale. We'll still need our other sources.</blockquote>

OK, I was not clear. Let me say it this way. Current sources of electricity are NOT green. So, that hybrid? Not as green as people would hope they are. I think this was Tom's point, that a hybrid isn't as green and there are greener options. Now, for some reason, I pointed out there is a source of "more green" electrical power that could meet future demand.

Again, a hybrid, series or what ever, is a blind guilt tax for those that do not wish to rethink thier car needs. They often drive with the happy impression that they are "doing thier bit". Which isn't really happening. Still traffic congestion, still using a non green power source. I argue that a Hybrid is not the solution people feel they are. And most people buy hybrids simply to save on gas, not to do better for others. So, a hybrid is not all that it's made up to be.

One thing that might also help is if we didn't have politicians like Diane Feinstein trying to stop solar power plants from being built in the desert.

Seriously, WTF?

If we all had pure electric cars, complete plug-in, how is the air cleaner when 90% of U.S. electricity production is from coal or fuel oil? Plus, we are continuing to concentrate wealth and political power in large corporations that market the absurd concept of "Clean Coal". It is not possible to have clean combustion, Co2 is a basic by product of burning anything to produce heat for power. Check out the Rocky Mountain Institute online, Amory Lovins.

We agree Feinstein is bum. I'm guilty of not going back to break down the specifics. My point was general, i.e. Fossil Fuels make up most of the electricity, so how do electric cars make for cleaner air? The exact breakdown is at the Energy Information Administration Form EIA-923 for year 2007, last published. Basically wind and solar make up about 2.5% with coal, oil, natural gas, and nuclear making up the rest. Sometimes when you want to make a point, if you are close, and you are honest, it represents the truth. Inertia is oftentimes created by the minutiae, just look at Congress. How would we put solar panels on our roofs, or for the HOA folks, on the bank of the neighborhood nearby? Well, the state and fed is willing to grant billions in tax relief to large corporations to build these power lines and large scale projects out in the desert. Why can't those tax credits and dollars be given to small landholders, home owners, local communities to source, build, and install their own solar power? My point, Congress is controlled by large corps, not you or me, or North Park. Sorry, I meant South Park.

Closing this thread down. Politics should be debated in person and not on forums. This discussion can go in circles for weeks. Lets talk bikes more.